Ihr Lieben,
da wir uns in der Rubrik "Negative Dialektik"
einem Chaos zu nähern drohten, da einerseits
über Adornos "Dialektik der Aufklärung" gesprochen
werden sollte, aber auch seine "zeitlosen"
Musikschriften nicht zu kurz kommen
durften bzw. die Kompositionstheorien,
die sich seit dieser Zeit entwickelten,
habe ich für einen etwaigen Diskussionsbedarf
diesen Thread eingerichtet
und die Anfangsdialoge zur Musiktheorie mit Hilfe
von Blue und Metaphysiker hier hineinkopiert.
Ich bin ein absoluter Laie und freue mich über alle
Interessierten, die sich in der Lage fühlen, uns
gewisse musikal. Theorien näher zu bringen.

Lieber Gruß,

Temp=)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
is it to be or not to be
and I replied:"so why ask me?"
_______________________________________

In Antwort auf:
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die negative Dialektik, die dieser Erfahrung durch Anstrengung entspringt, verliert aus zeitlicher Distanz alles Monströse, alles scheinbar Unauflösliche,das früher vielleicht der Person Adornos hilflos hat zugeschoben werden müssen.
Ihre Vermittlung macht dies aber um nichts einfacher
und um nichts obsoleter. – Es sei hier noch festgehalten,
dass der junge Adorno nie, und der späte nur ablehnend,
in Erwägung zog, Musik könne völlig athematisch werden; die Schönbergsche Vorstellung von Variation, die die Dominanz eines Hauptthemas außer Kraft setzt und mit der Adorno es zu tun hatte,
kommt dem aber der Sache nach (nicht dem Wortlaut nach)
stetig näher.

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Dear Temp ,Duns and Metaphysiker

so we are all discussing Negation when it comes down to musical changes. Maybe I am wrong .I´m still thinking over your Schönberg thesis.So let´s remember that without the example of Strauss´ music Schönbergs achievements from 1908 on would have been inconceivable.With the passage of time, however, Strauss´s surprisingly conventional attitude towards dissonance veered towards an all too easy reconciliation with the worst shortcomings of his era:
Despite Schönbergs "emancipation of dissonance" it was really Strauss who shattered the old notions of cause and effect, that is to say, that dissonance understood here in its broad sense as a kind of collision - a heightening of tension - is more than pure sensation:

"Schönberg insisted on homeostasis in music: he demanded that it resolved its tensions and honor the obligations whicht it incurs from the very first (measure). Strauss refuses to worry on such matters ; his music is forgetful in principle"
(Theodor W. Adorno,"The Artist as Deputy", in "Notes to Literature" I,vol.I,ed. Rolf Tiedemann,trans.& intro. Shierry Weber Nicholsen, European Perspective Series,(N.Y.Columbia University Press,1991,p.105-106))

regards
Blue

lolol Temp, we´d better worry about Berg´s chromas

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The existence of truth only becomes an issue when another sort of truth is in question. (R.Rorty)

Dear Blue,

After formatting the entire pc I will be able having a quick look at your comments on Schönberg
and Strauss.BTW welcome back

In Antwort auf:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Despite Schönbergs "emancipation of dissonance" it was really Strauss who shattered the old notions of cause and effect, that is to say, that dissonance understood here in its broad sense as a kind of collision - a heightening of tension - is more than pure sensation:

"Schönberg insisted on homeostasis in music: he demanded that it resolved its tensions and honor the obligations whicht it incurs from the very first (measure). Strauss refuses to worry on such matters ; his music is forgetful in principle"

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On the one hand, Adorno tends to speak of how the composer is faced with "problems" posed by music, or the questions directed to him by the material in the form of its own immanent problems, as in the case of Schönberg.Here the implication is that the best composers will find ways of responding to music - ways of solving the problem music poses.And in this case, music´s link to society is conceived as isomorphic: each develops according to its perspective internal logics and both these logics are generated by an underlying structural dynamic.I´d suggest to read Adorno as a structuralist as implying music "mirrors" or in some way is structurally related to society.
The composer´s task seems to be essentially passive:one who follows the "laws" of development implicit in music´s material.According to Adorno "good" composers are those, who are best able to develop the implications of musical material´s potential.(It seems to me there is more than a little metaphysics here of Adorno´s thought...)

warm regards

Temp=)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
is it to be or not to be
and I replied:"so why ask me?"
_______________________________________

Dear Blue,

I am sorry but my english is louzy .

you wrote:
"
Despite Schönbergs "emancipation of dissonance" it was really Strauss who shattered the old notions of cause and effect, that is to say, that dissonance understood here in its broad sense as a kind of collision - a heightening of tension - is more than pure sensation:

"Schönberg insisted on homeostasis in music: he demanded that it resolved its tensions and honor the obligations whicht it incurs from the very first (measure). Strauss refuses to worry on such matters ; his music is forgetful in principle"

Diese Aussage lässt mich zweifeln ebenso wie die, dass die bzw. eine Liebe wirklicher und wahrer als die Philosophie ist, schöner und im metaphysischen Sinn mindestens so gut, d. h. ebenso sehr über den Tod hinausweisend. .“ Trotzdem lässt sich auch unter Wahrung des gegebenen propädeutischen Rahmens der angesprochene Weg zum Ziel noch folgsamer formulieren:
Die klassische Musik hat ihre Größe daran, dass sie nicht nur in statischen Blöcken reine, leicht identifizierbare Themen als womögliche schöne Melodien präsentiert; die Einheitlichkeit wird geradezu verstärkt, wenn ihnen dynamische Abschnitte (z.B.Boulez, 1972, 73), das sind terminologisch die Durchführungen, hinzugeführt werden, in denen die Motive als Identische, d. h. als Bruchstücke der Themen durch den harmonischen Raum, moduliert durch verschiedene Tonarten, eben durchgeführt werden. Die Größe der modernen Musik besteht dann darin, diese bürokratische Ordnung in Bewegung zu versetzen, ohne dass ein Chaos entstehen müsste.Der Begriff der Dimension wird hier nicht definiert und steht folglich für Unterschiedliches: er meint kompositorisch einerseits kleine Form vs. große Form, dann aber auch die drei strukturalen Identitätsprinzipien
a) Grundtonbezogenheit,
b) motivisch-thematische Fasslichkeit bzw. Sprachähnlichkeit und
c) (spürbare) Gegensätzlichkeit, die –zusammen – einerseits Periodizität faktisch erzwingen, andererseits in einem gleichmäßigen Metrum als ihrer zusätzlichen Voraussetzung ruhen.

In der Philosophie der neuen Musik gebraucht Adorno den Dimensionsbegriff beinahe analog zum geschichtlich späteren des Parameters: „Die verschiedenen Dimensionen der tonalen abendländischen Musik – Melodik, Harmonik, Kontrapunkt, Form und Instrumentation – haben historisch weithin unabhängig sich entwickelt, planlos und insofern 'naturwüchsig'.“ (12; 55) Jedenfalls ließe sich in der neueren Terminologie problemlos sagen, die Aufmerksamkeit den verschiedenen Parametern der Musik gegenüber sei nicht gleichmäßig gefördert worden.

bis demnächst... bye, bye

Metaphysiker

Dear Temp

In Antwort auf:
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Here the implication is that the best composers will find ways of responding to music - ways of solving the problem music poses.And in this case, music´s link to society is conceived as isomorphic: each develops according to its perspective internal logics and both these logics are generated by an underlying structural dynamic.

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However much it seems to be conceived according to purely inherent construction principles of form, twelve-tone organisation,melodics, harmony, and rhythm. Thus the music supports the perception of continuity,cuts and caesuras as well as characteristics.There was a polarization at first, between the schools around Hindemith and Schoenberg, the first school lost its influence almost entirely in the 60s and the second gained great momentum engendering serialism and experimental music in the 70s. Even still in the 80s many composers who had not embarked on either serialism or experimental music found themselves alienated and isolated. The climate changed over the last decade and the motto “anything goes” is widespread.
The fact that Hindemith’s scientific approach was exposed by Schole(1938) as pseudoscientific strengthened the arguments of the opponents who understood music as a solely socio- cultural phenomenon (Adorno 1949). This also might explain why psycho - acoustic research has been marginalized and only few composers have a more comprehensive understanding of the subject matter. In this context, Terhardt’s (1976) theory of virtual pitch takes in a prominent place.

regards

Blue

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The existence of truth only becomes an issue when another sort of truth is in question. (R.Rorty)

Dear Blue

In Antwort auf:
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The fact that Hindemith’s scientific approach was exposed by Schole(1938) as pseudoscientific strengthened the arguments of the opponents who understood music as a solely socio- cultural phenomenon (Adorno 1949). This also might explain why psycho - acoustic research has been marginalized and only few composers have a more comprehensive understanding of the subject matter. In this context, Terhardt’s (1976) theory of virtual pitch takes in a prominent place.
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I feel completely lost at present because I can´t identify the meaning of Terhardt´s theory .
So what is the crucial difference between classic harmony theory and virtual pitch?
I haven´t read any harmony theories yet ( I can tell you what kind of diatonic harp you got to use and how to make it sound blue when you are accompanying a delta blues theme with your guitar - but then I rely rather on Stephen Grossmans harmonical schemata how to play a guitar "straight" and the blues harp crossed - it´s actually all about finding a kind of dissonance.. not just the blue notes to enhance tensions).
I know how to play a C mayor and a C minor and I certainly rely on fundamental Bass lines - I can read notes, chords and tabulatures - but it´s a very confined knowledge about some basics of classical music.I would appreciate you giving an example about the difference of chords related to classical and virtual musical theory.

best wishes

Temp

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
is it to be or not to be
and I replied:"so why ask me?"
_______________________________________

Dear Temp

In Antwort auf:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can tell you what kind of diatonic harp you got to use and how to make it sound blue when you are accompanying a delta blues theme with your guitar - but then I rely rather on Stephen Grossmans harmonical schemata how to play a guitar "straight" and the blues harp crossed - it´s actually all about finding a kind of dissonance.. not just the blue notes to enhance tensions).
I know how to play a C mayor and a C minor and I certainly rely on fundamental Bass lines ..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually you have a good starting point in understanding when you experienced dissonance.No need to worry.
Let´s try an example .When enabling on an ordinary 6 string guitar playing the chord c classical we both will be using the notes c,e and g with alternating basses like doubling on the e and a strings the notes e,c and g.
This can be fun for a while but its not dissonant.So now we are imaginating asking a blues harp player to join us and play a 4-takes-line starting at the 4th position.This will sound a little bluesy due to the blues scale.The harp player - doing his 4th position - is making some of our tones sounding rather dissonant.So we can carry on with this for ages but we are likely to stop one day because we will aim to go for the biggest dissonance ever possible and of course we want to make our bass sound as fundamental as well.That´s the point when Webern is entering our thoughts and now everything´s changing. According to Webern we are leaving our classical scheme (C,E,G) and playing the chords c, c#, f#,( which we will call Webern triad).This is far more dissonant but still not dissonant enough. So we add a Cluster triad on this by playing the chord c, c#, d..The strongest tonic in both cases is d. Surprisingly at first, this seems even sensible referring back to classical harmony theory. The D- major - 7 is given by: d,f#, a, c and the D- major+7 is given by: d, f#, a, c#. Combining both chords and omitting the root d and the fifth a, we obtain the Webern triad. Omission of the third f# and the fifth a, result s in the cluster triad. The tone d is the fundamental bass in both cases. However, d is the stronger fundamental bass for the cluster triad (d = 3.08 Hh) compared to the Webern triad (d = 2.95). This is one of the factors, which leads to the difference in sonance. Sonance, hereby, is the degree of consonance / dissonance of a chord (related to pitch salience). A pure sine wave will fetch the value S = 1 Sh (Sh is short for Shouten). White noise will fetch the value S= 0 Sh. The fact, that the cluster triad has a higher sonance (S = 0.17) than the Webern triad (S = 0.158) means, that the Webern triad is more noise - like.
So both triads form the basics of Terhardt´s theory.

regards

Blue

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The existence of truth only becomes an issue when another sort of truth is in question. (R.Rorty)

Liebe Temp und Dear Blue,

Modernisierungsprozesse, die für europäische Kulturen (spätestens) seit dem 18. Jh. bestimmend werden, verbinden sich mit einer geschichtlich beispiellosen Vergesellschaftung:
der Entstehung großer (und „größter“) sozialer Systeme,staatenübergreifender Verkehrs-und
Kommunikationsformen, der massenhaften Produktion standardisierter Güter und deren Distribution auf zunehmend anonym werdenden Märkten. Zugleich geht mit ihnen eine äußerst intensive Arbeitsteilung einher, die gesamtgesellschaftliche Diskurse erschwert, wenn nicht vollends verhindert. Resultat, für das individuelle Erleben und Durchleben entsprechender Problemlagen, ist ein ganzer Kanon menschlicher Entfremdungen.

In Antwort auf:

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However much it seems to be conceived according to purely inherent construction principles of form, twelve-tone organisation,melodics, harmony, and rhythm.
Thus the music supports the perception of continuity,cuts and caesuras as well as characteristics.There was a polarization at first, between the schools around Hindemith and Schoenberg,the first school lost its influence almost entirely in the 60s and the second gained great momentum engendering serialism and experimental music in the 70s.
Even still in the 80s many composers who had not embarked on either serialism or experimental music found themselves alienated and isolated.

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Musik entzieht sich dieser Modernisierung keineswegs, sie hat Teil an ihr, ja überhöht sie vielfach mit ästhetischen Valenzen. Vielleicht seid ihr daran interessiert, einzelne Modernisierungsleistungen von der Kommerzialisierung (oder auch Nicht-Kommerzialisierung) der Musik, über das Wechselspiel autoritärer und „demokratischer“ Kommunikations-strukturen, die Entwicklung rationalistischer bzw. technizistischer Wert-Konzepte bis hin zur Transformation kultureller Identitäten im Mainstream der musikalischen Globalisierung, zu diskutieren.

bis demnächst,

Metaphysiker

Hi Temp, Blue and Metaphysiker

In Antwort auf:

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Musik entzieht sich dieser Modernisierung keineswegs, sie hat Teil an ihr, ja überhöht sie vielfach mit ästhetischen Valenzen

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I found some sheet music of Schönberg on the web

the Arnold Schönberg Center,Wien commented:

Zusammengesetztes Skizzenblatt, undatiert

MS 45, Archiv Nr. 766

(Quelle Aa, in: Arnold Schönberg: Sämtliche Werke. Abteilung VI: Kammermusik. Reihe B, Band 24, 2: Ode to Napoleon Buonaparte (Nach einem Gedicht von Lord Byron) op. 41. Kritischer Bericht, Studien zur Genesis, Skizzen, Dokumente. Herausgegeben von Reinhold Brinkmann Mainz, Wien 1997, S. 20)

Drei Stücke selbstlinierten Notenpapiers sind auf eine Seite eines Stücks Pappe aufgeklebt (Gesamtgröße, hoch, ca. 458 x 269 mm). Oberes Blatt (quer, ca. 269 x 177 mm), 11 Systeme. Vom 9. System links nach unten ist ein zweites Stück Notenpapier (hoch, ca. 334 x 139 mm) aufgeklebt, das selbst wieder aus zwei Stücken zusammengesetzt ist (das aufgeklebte untere Stück ist ca. 166 mm hoch) und insgesamt 16 Systeme enthält. Einseitig mit Tinte beschrieben, nur die Ziffern 1 6 3 5 4 2 rechts über System 1 und die Zusatznoten im jeweils dritten Segment von System 1 und 2 sind mit Bleistift ausgeführt. Die Quelle enthält eine Hexachord-Tabelle.

Written in blue ink on three leaves joined together to create one long vertical tone row chart. The first leaf measures 458 x 269 mm. and is affixed to a piece of cardboard. The second leaf measures 334 x 139 mm.; the third leaf measures 140 x 166 mm. The staves - altogether 16 - are hand drawn in black ink on the recto of each leaf. All the versos are blank. The sketch is realized in ink, except for the numbers 1 6 3 5 4 2 (first stave at the top) and for additional notes in the first two staves. This source contains a Hexachord table.

Presumably one of you can add a comment to this line:Actually I ´d like to ask - what is specific "Schönbergian" about this?

warm regards

NID

_____________________________________________

"Is not all life the struggle of experience, naked, unarmed, timid but immortal, against generalised thought?" (W.B.Yeats)

Dear Temp, NID and Metaphysiker

It is composed in an idiosyncratic, yet consistent, twelve-note idiom. The opening 4 bars employs discrete sets of twelve pitch-classes – with signifying the movement number. With the exception of the 8th row, which is related respectively at T8, these are not derived through conventional dodecaphonic means. The tones are introduced in pairs in the first four bars, and are partitioned so that the whole of the pitch-class material of each set is assigned to either the right- or the left-hand part, with each successive, parallel statement being completed within the span of a bar.
In the course of this piece of music, this manner of synchronous unfolding of pairs of sets is contrasted by instances of successive statements of single sets. In the latter case the pitch-classes are obviously distributed between the right- and left-hand parts, although interchange of material between the two parts, when two sets unfold simultaneously, occurs only once. However they are presented, complete statements of sets invariably span a bar, or an even number of beats or bars.

regards

Blue

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The existence of truth only becomes an issue when another sort of truth is in question. (R.Rorty)